What is the average citizen supposed to believe? Here we have 2 seemingly reasonable journalists completely disagreeing on the actual history of the region. How is one to determine the truth of these matters?
What is the average citizen supposed to believe? Here we have 2 seemingly reasonable journalists completely disagreeing on the actual history of the region. How is one to determine the truth of these matters?
We have a long history, Torah long, of self hating Jews. They recur in every generation. There’s even a name for them ‘erev rav’. They are the Yevsetskaya Jews (who championed Communists, only to be destroyed by them), the Jews for Hitler (see above) and the progressive American Jews. They are the ‘mixed multitude’ who break the original commandment to have no God but God. Whether they worship Lenin, Hitler or at the church of woke, they turn on their own first, since this initially gives them the popularity, the exceptionalism their hungry, fearful souls demand. For a short time, they are tokenized by those who can strip them for parts. Then, inevitably they are discarded. They are the Judas goats to the Jewish people. For a list of the latest erev rav, see the list provided by Matthew Gindin.
Oh, and the “one drop” rule is straight from the Nazis. Love that you can actually say that without actually knowing or understanding what you just said. You are an example of why Jews needed the state of Israel and why we should be afraid of western culture.
My understanding is that most Jews were not Zionists until WWII and the H - and they were not 'self hating' either. This is not to say they were right or wrong either ...
Most Jews did not ascribe to an idea that did not exist until it existed? This was 100 years ago, there was no twitter. The idea had to spread organically.
Yeah, a lot of folks outside the western world are entho chauvinists.... but most western conditioned folks are more modern in their outlook and don't feel like their ethno world is under threat. Are there really only 13M Jews in the world? They certainly make a big bang for their buck...
I’m sure there are more than that genetically speaking, if you go by a “one drop” rule. But as it stands NYC is the largest single population center of Jews by a long shot.
I think that’s part of the disconnect people have here, there are 1+ billion Muslims, 500 million Arabs. That’s why reframing the Jewish-Arab conflict as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was such a genius PR move.
“They” are sure good at— you means The Jews. If you wouldn’t say that about any other group why say it about the Jews? I know why and so do you. It’s really hard to hide your hatred when you use “they” to describe any group of people. Yours is the most common of semi hiding your dislike of the Jewish people wherever they live.
Consider that the Palestinians are externally good at propaganda… can you describe the ways in which they have used their situation, which they in part created to justify killing Jews specifically?
You seem reasonable in your looking for answers -expect when it comes to the Jews. Why?
I have been reading/listening as much as possible these last weeks and am more confused than ever. The contradictions, cherry picking, willful ignorance of facts on both sides is astounding. I think the fundamental question is should Israel have the right to exist? If you answer yes to that question, how does Israel secure their nation against the majority of its neighbors who wish to see them wiped off the face of the earth? What does a peaceful Palestinian state look like? How do the Palestinians co exist with Jews? And vice versa. If you answer no to this question, where do the 15 million Jews go? How should they be removed?
Hi Ann - I hear you. I think one some levels where one stands on this conflict depends on deeper issues- the pre-existing moral and philosophical commitments one brings to the issue. This is probably why Gurwinder and I disagree, more than just disagreeing about information- though I think if we could dialogue we might learn from each other in the “what is true” area. With regards to “the right to exist” I think Israel, like all states, only has a right to exist to the extent that it is democratic and honours the human rights of all those it rules. Palestinians are not an issue external to Israel, but internal to it. They are ruled by Israel, but not given the rights of citizens. So I’m my opinion Israel needs to become a pluralistic, democratic state for all in order to maintain its legitimacy in the eyes of those it rules. If it doesn’t, it will be forever attacked. Is a just Israeli state which is not founded and structured, as it currently is, by Jewish supremacist legislation and power, possible? I think that it is, and also that the path to that is dangerous and brutally difficult, and would require great courage and creativity from Israelis. Yet it is not more dangerous and brutal than decades of war and the horrific state Israel keeps Palestinians in currently. The current status quo is morally intolerable and strategically short-sighted; it will result either in perpetual war or in Israel finally expelling or exterminating the Palestinians, in my opinion. Israel is an incredibly well resourced country on every level, and I believe those resources could be channeled towards truth and reconciliation as in South Africa rather than perpetual occupation and war. Again, hard and dangerous, but better than the status quo of the last few decades.
"I think Israel, like all states, only has a right to exist to the extent that it is democratic and honours the human rights of all those it rules. Palestinians are not an issue external to Israel, but internal to it. They are ruled by Israel, but not given the rights of citizens."
How do you co-exist with someone who believes that you shouldn't exist altogether? Who is ready to blow themselves so that they can harm you. You seem to be making a point that Palestine issue has arisen because somehow Israel is not giving Palestinians rights they so deserve. What about the possibility that they don;t want rights from Israel rather that there be no Israel.
Not gonna happen until there are peacemakers willing to compromise on both sides. With Netanyahu still at the helm, the Palestinian Authorities openly supporting Hamas and with Hezbollah, this is currently unlikely.
Well said Matthew. I too have been listening to many journalists and researchers, who have a great deal of experience living, studying, and thinking about these issues. Ultimately it is these people, you included, we should consider as the experts, not armchair philosophers of whom there is a gorgeous abundance at the moment.
Read, read and read more. This is one of the world's most complex conflicts. You will probably end your reading with deep misgivings, a sense of still not fully understanding but a deeper awareness of how issues of morality and ethics are messy, complex and truly worthy of their importance and consideration.
What is the average citizen supposed to believe? Here we have 2 seemingly reasonable journalists completely disagreeing on the actual history of the region. How is one to determine the truth of these matters?
We have a long history, Torah long, of self hating Jews. They recur in every generation. There’s even a name for them ‘erev rav’. They are the Yevsetskaya Jews (who championed Communists, only to be destroyed by them), the Jews for Hitler (see above) and the progressive American Jews. They are the ‘mixed multitude’ who break the original commandment to have no God but God. Whether they worship Lenin, Hitler or at the church of woke, they turn on their own first, since this initially gives them the popularity, the exceptionalism their hungry, fearful souls demand. For a short time, they are tokenized by those who can strip them for parts. Then, inevitably they are discarded. They are the Judas goats to the Jewish people. For a list of the latest erev rav, see the list provided by Matthew Gindin.
Well said
Oh, and the “one drop” rule is straight from the Nazis. Love that you can actually say that without actually knowing or understanding what you just said. You are an example of why Jews needed the state of Israel and why we should be afraid of western culture.
Just “people” ...who can be discarded...read Jews Don’t Count
If the 13 million Jews in the world today disappeared not many would truly miss us.
My understanding is that most Jews were not Zionists until WWII and the H - and they were not 'self hating' either. This is not to say they were right or wrong either ...
Most Jews did not ascribe to an idea that did not exist until it existed? This was 100 years ago, there was no twitter. The idea had to spread organically.
There were Jewish newspapers and most Jews knew about Zionism.
Wow, a serious ethno fanatic... lots of Jews are just people now.... and they aren't genocidal maniacs either..
Are the Palestinians Ethno fanatics? Why do you only have a problem with it when Jews do it?
Yeah, a lot of folks outside the western world are entho chauvinists.... but most western conditioned folks are more modern in their outlook and don't feel like their ethno world is under threat. Are there really only 13M Jews in the world? They certainly make a big bang for their buck...
I’m sure there are more than that genetically speaking, if you go by a “one drop” rule. But as it stands NYC is the largest single population center of Jews by a long shot.
I think that’s part of the disconnect people have here, there are 1+ billion Muslims, 500 million Arabs. That’s why reframing the Jewish-Arab conflict as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was such a genius PR move.
They sure are good at propaganda!!
“They” are sure good at— you means The Jews. If you wouldn’t say that about any other group why say it about the Jews? I know why and so do you. It’s really hard to hide your hatred when you use “they” to describe any group of people. Yours is the most common of semi hiding your dislike of the Jewish people wherever they live.
Consider that the Palestinians are externally good at propaganda… can you describe the ways in which they have used their situation, which they in part created to justify killing Jews specifically?
You seem reasonable in your looking for answers -expect when it comes to the Jews. Why?
See my reading list, shortly arriving above, study and decide :)
I have been reading/listening as much as possible these last weeks and am more confused than ever. The contradictions, cherry picking, willful ignorance of facts on both sides is astounding. I think the fundamental question is should Israel have the right to exist? If you answer yes to that question, how does Israel secure their nation against the majority of its neighbors who wish to see them wiped off the face of the earth? What does a peaceful Palestinian state look like? How do the Palestinians co exist with Jews? And vice versa. If you answer no to this question, where do the 15 million Jews go? How should they be removed?
Hi Ann - I hear you. I think one some levels where one stands on this conflict depends on deeper issues- the pre-existing moral and philosophical commitments one brings to the issue. This is probably why Gurwinder and I disagree, more than just disagreeing about information- though I think if we could dialogue we might learn from each other in the “what is true” area. With regards to “the right to exist” I think Israel, like all states, only has a right to exist to the extent that it is democratic and honours the human rights of all those it rules. Palestinians are not an issue external to Israel, but internal to it. They are ruled by Israel, but not given the rights of citizens. So I’m my opinion Israel needs to become a pluralistic, democratic state for all in order to maintain its legitimacy in the eyes of those it rules. If it doesn’t, it will be forever attacked. Is a just Israeli state which is not founded and structured, as it currently is, by Jewish supremacist legislation and power, possible? I think that it is, and also that the path to that is dangerous and brutally difficult, and would require great courage and creativity from Israelis. Yet it is not more dangerous and brutal than decades of war and the horrific state Israel keeps Palestinians in currently. The current status quo is morally intolerable and strategically short-sighted; it will result either in perpetual war or in Israel finally expelling or exterminating the Palestinians, in my opinion. Israel is an incredibly well resourced country on every level, and I believe those resources could be channeled towards truth and reconciliation as in South Africa rather than perpetual occupation and war. Again, hard and dangerous, but better than the status quo of the last few decades.
"Israel needs to become a pluralistic, democratic state for all in order to maintain its legitimacy in the eyes of those it rules."
I am just a layman, but it doesn't seem to me like Hamas and its supporters are that interested in the pluralistic, democratic state you speak of.
"List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
"I think Israel, like all states, only has a right to exist to the extent that it is democratic and honours the human rights of all those it rules. Palestinians are not an issue external to Israel, but internal to it. They are ruled by Israel, but not given the rights of citizens."
How do you co-exist with someone who believes that you shouldn't exist altogether? Who is ready to blow themselves so that they can harm you. You seem to be making a point that Palestine issue has arisen because somehow Israel is not giving Palestinians rights they so deserve. What about the possibility that they don;t want rights from Israel rather that there be no Israel.
Not gonna happen until there are peacemakers willing to compromise on both sides. With Netanyahu still at the helm, the Palestinian Authorities openly supporting Hamas and with Hezbollah, this is currently unlikely.
Well said Matthew. I too have been listening to many journalists and researchers, who have a great deal of experience living, studying, and thinking about these issues. Ultimately it is these people, you included, we should consider as the experts, not armchair philosophers of whom there is a gorgeous abundance at the moment.
But how does the actions, goals and treatment of Palestinians by Hamas, Iran, etc. figure into that equation?
Read, read and read more. This is one of the world's most complex conflicts. You will probably end your reading with deep misgivings, a sense of still not fully understanding but a deeper awareness of how issues of morality and ethics are messy, complex and truly worthy of their importance and consideration.