I'm not an expert on the historical details. My memory is that Israel offered Arafat a Palestinian state that Israel would still control in some important respects. If true, then Israel offered Arafat a deal that Israel would not have accepted if it were in Arafat's position. It's not clear to me that a truly sovereign Palestinian state …
I'm not an expert on the historical details. My memory is that Israel offered Arafat a Palestinian state that Israel would still control in some important respects. If true, then Israel offered Arafat a deal that Israel would not have accepted if it were in Arafat's position. It's not clear to me that a truly sovereign Palestinian state has ever been on the table.
Anyway, this is all very old news. The situation now is that there is no longer any chance of peace, so the wise people on both sides should be getting out of the Middle East asap.
Israel gave the Palestinians this opportunity in Gaza in 2007. But Hamas took over Gaza and it became a launching pad for rockets into Israel. So the security concerns Israel voiced since the beginning have been proven right. Would you have Israel cede Judaea & Samaria and have either Hamas or Fatah launch rockets on Tel Aviv ?
You see, Israel signed peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt. And this relationship is working. Each respects their borders and neither launches attacks on the other.
When the Palestinians express a will to act like Egypt or Jordan, then Israel can cede their security concerns. Not a minute sooner.
To my knowledge, Israel has never offered any group of Palestinians full sovereignty over any land. If you know otherwise, please link us to some independent information source other than yourself. And anyway....
All of this kind of historical blame game analysis is a complete waste of time. None of it has ever made anybody in the region safe.
You argument is that Israel came to the negotiating table in good faith. My argument is that Israel has never really come to the negotiating table, because the full sovereignty Palestinians want (the same thing Israelis want) has never been an option.
Please explain to us how this peace you speak of is supposed to work.
1) Will Israel give the Palestinians the full sovereignty that Israel claims for itself? This has never been on the table as an option.
2) Will Israel incorporate the Palestinians as fully equal citizens of Israel? That would be the end of the Jewish state, right?
If Hamas put down their weapons tomorrow someone else would pick up those weapons and continue the fight, because the Israelis have no intention of ever treating the Palestinians as equal human beings. Palestinian violence is being used as a cover story to hide that reality.
There will only be peace if the Palestinians put down their weapons AND accept 2nd class status, something Israelis would never do.
One rule for Israelis, another for Palestinians. That formula is never going to lead to peace.
Anyway, peace in the Middle East is now officially dead. I don't know why we're still talking about it as if it were a possibility.
There are millions of Arab Jews in Israel who are barely distinguishable from the Palestinians, 10s of thousands of Bedouin Arabs (1500 of whom have a dedicated battalion in the IDF), and I'm sure a lot of Palestinian Israelis too. So I don't get the point of you asking the second question.
The Oct 7 attack has radicalised most Israelis, so yeah I don't think anyone supports a 2 state solution.
No. They will not. Because they, as a rule, are antisemitic and want to remove Jews from the area, and reproduce at an alarming rate, a one state solution is not feasible. Anyone advocating for a one state solution is being fully disingenuous.
You write, "When the Palestinians express a will to act like Egypt or Jordan, then Israel can cede their security concerns."
As I see it, the Palestinians will never accept limited sovereignty, and Israel will never grant full sovereignty, therefore...
Any hope of peace between the two parties is officially dead. It's probably been dead for years, but in case anyone was in doubt about that, Oct 7 put the final nail in the coffin. If true, then all the memorized slogans about who did what when and who is right and who is wrong etc etc are now entirely pointless. But everyone keeps chanting those slogans, because they've become addicted to the chanting.
I would compare this situation to a failed marriage that is beyond repair. The parties tried to work it out various times, but failed to accomplish that goal, so the marriage is now finally over for good. The problem in the Middle East is of course that, the parties involved are very stubbornly determined to fight to the death over who gets to keep the house.
My best guess is that both of them may wind up dead on the bathroom floor. WMD is coming to this conflict sooner or later.
Belligerence is a funny thing. If a belligerent party continues its belligerence, the other side will eventually crush it. This is why we let playground disputes continue. To let little boys fight it out. To bring closure. This is what has happened throughout history. This is what stops the fight. When the belligerent party realizes that it cannot win. So far in this conflict, the belligerent party has been permitted, either by Israel or the international community, to survive. In my opinion, this will only end when Israel is permitted to finish the fight. To put the belligerent party down.
Well, your post assumes that somebody other than Israel is the belligerent party, and that Israel has the power to put the belligerent party down. I doubt Israel can put down even Hamas and Hezbollah, let alone Iran and Russia.
What I see is that the founders of Israel, with the best of intentions, made a serious tactical error when they tried to establish peace and security for Jews right in the middle of a part of the world dominated by psychopathic despots.
I'm not an expert on the historical details. My memory is that Israel offered Arafat a Palestinian state that Israel would still control in some important respects. If true, then Israel offered Arafat a deal that Israel would not have accepted if it were in Arafat's position. It's not clear to me that a truly sovereign Palestinian state has ever been on the table.
Anyway, this is all very old news. The situation now is that there is no longer any chance of peace, so the wise people on both sides should be getting out of the Middle East asap.
Israel gave the Palestinians this opportunity in Gaza in 2007. But Hamas took over Gaza and it became a launching pad for rockets into Israel. So the security concerns Israel voiced since the beginning have been proven right. Would you have Israel cede Judaea & Samaria and have either Hamas or Fatah launch rockets on Tel Aviv ?
You see, Israel signed peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt. And this relationship is working. Each respects their borders and neither launches attacks on the other.
When the Palestinians express a will to act like Egypt or Jordan, then Israel can cede their security concerns. Not a minute sooner.
To my knowledge, Israel has never offered any group of Palestinians full sovereignty over any land. If you know otherwise, please link us to some independent information source other than yourself. And anyway....
All of this kind of historical blame game analysis is a complete waste of time. None of it has ever made anybody in the region safe.
I’m not saying that Israel offered sovereignty to the Palestinians.
I’m saying the example of Gaza proves why Israel will not provide such sovereignty. It cannot be trusted.
If Hamas put their weapons down to tomorrow, there would be peace.
If israel put their weapons down tomorrow, israel would be destroyed.
You argument is that Israel came to the negotiating table in good faith. My argument is that Israel has never really come to the negotiating table, because the full sovereignty Palestinians want (the same thing Israelis want) has never been an option.
Please explain to us how this peace you speak of is supposed to work.
1) Will Israel give the Palestinians the full sovereignty that Israel claims for itself? This has never been on the table as an option.
2) Will Israel incorporate the Palestinians as fully equal citizens of Israel? That would be the end of the Jewish state, right?
If Hamas put down their weapons tomorrow someone else would pick up those weapons and continue the fight, because the Israelis have no intention of ever treating the Palestinians as equal human beings. Palestinian violence is being used as a cover story to hide that reality.
There will only be peace if the Palestinians put down their weapons AND accept 2nd class status, something Israelis would never do.
One rule for Israelis, another for Palestinians. That formula is never going to lead to peace.
Anyway, peace in the Middle East is now officially dead. I don't know why we're still talking about it as if it were a possibility.
There are millions of Arab Jews in Israel who are barely distinguishable from the Palestinians, 10s of thousands of Bedouin Arabs (1500 of whom have a dedicated battalion in the IDF), and I'm sure a lot of Palestinian Israelis too. So I don't get the point of you asking the second question.
The Oct 7 attack has radicalised most Israelis, so yeah I don't think anyone supports a 2 state solution.
REPHRASE: Will the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank be accepted as fully equal citizens of Israel?
Obviously, I'm no one to say, but in my opinion Israeli citizens are much more liberal than their Palestinian counterparts.
No. They will not. Because they, as a rule, are antisemitic and want to remove Jews from the area, and reproduce at an alarming rate, a one state solution is not feasible. Anyone advocating for a one state solution is being fully disingenuous.
I agree. A one state solution isn't going to happen. And given recent events, nor is a two state solution. From which I reason....
Peace in the Middle East is now officially dead.
If true, what are the implications of this?
How about Iran? Decimate them too?
You write, "When the Palestinians express a will to act like Egypt or Jordan, then Israel can cede their security concerns."
As I see it, the Palestinians will never accept limited sovereignty, and Israel will never grant full sovereignty, therefore...
Any hope of peace between the two parties is officially dead. It's probably been dead for years, but in case anyone was in doubt about that, Oct 7 put the final nail in the coffin. If true, then all the memorized slogans about who did what when and who is right and who is wrong etc etc are now entirely pointless. But everyone keeps chanting those slogans, because they've become addicted to the chanting.
I would compare this situation to a failed marriage that is beyond repair. The parties tried to work it out various times, but failed to accomplish that goal, so the marriage is now finally over for good. The problem in the Middle East is of course that, the parties involved are very stubbornly determined to fight to the death over who gets to keep the house.
My best guess is that both of them may wind up dead on the bathroom floor. WMD is coming to this conflict sooner or later.
Belligerence is a funny thing. If a belligerent party continues its belligerence, the other side will eventually crush it. This is why we let playground disputes continue. To let little boys fight it out. To bring closure. This is what has happened throughout history. This is what stops the fight. When the belligerent party realizes that it cannot win. So far in this conflict, the belligerent party has been permitted, either by Israel or the international community, to survive. In my opinion, this will only end when Israel is permitted to finish the fight. To put the belligerent party down.
Well, your post assumes that somebody other than Israel is the belligerent party, and that Israel has the power to put the belligerent party down. I doubt Israel can put down even Hamas and Hezbollah, let alone Iran and Russia.
What I see is that the founders of Israel, with the best of intentions, made a serious tactical error when they tried to establish peace and security for Jews right in the middle of a part of the world dominated by psychopathic despots.