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Gurwinder's avatar

I'm always happy to hear opposing views. A reading list would be appreciated.

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Matthew Gindin's avatar

Hi Gurwinder, ask and you shall receive! Here are some recommendations:

First of all, Peter Beinart's substack is indispensable. His personal essays and statements as well as video interviews with Palestinians and Jewish voices are excellent:

https://peterbeinart.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=reader2&utm_source=%2Fsearch%2Fpeter%2520beinart&utm_medium=reader2

My favorite over-all history: "Enemies and Neighbours" by Ian Black

Legal- historical perspectives:

"The Unmaking of Israel" by Orthodox Jew and lawyer Gershom Gorenberg,

"Justice For Some: Law and The Question of Palestine" by Palestinian legal scholar Noura Efrat

Eyewitness to Palestinian reality:

"The Way To The Spring: Life and Death In Palestine" by Jewish journalist Ben Ehrenreich

The way forward:

"Haifa Republic" by Israeli philosopher Omri Boehm

"After Zionism" a collection of essays on the way forward by a number of experts in the area, edited by Moor and Lowenstein

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Gurwinder's avatar

Thank you. I'm familiar with some of these sources already, and was not convinced by them. But I'll keep an open mind and check the rest out!

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Petey's avatar

IтАЩm curious if you ever listened to the MartyrMade podcast series тАЬFear and Loathing in New JerusalemтАЭ. ItтАЩs considered a fair account of both sides by many, and it left me with a very different impression of the history than you are presenting here.

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Parrhesia's avatar

Would be interesting to know what about which of these sources wasn't convincing to you (I haven't read them but may well do so and it would in any case be interesting to know what sorts of arguments or ways of putting together evidence don't ring true for you)

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Gurwinder's avatar

I read EhrenreichтАЩs book, and found it interesting, but often a little too anecdotal and emotion-based. IтАЩm also familiar with the work of Gorenberg, and agree with him about West Bank settlements, but havenтАЩt found aspects of his work that dispute what I wrote.

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

The sheer complexity of the history of the region can easily lend itself to any interpretation one wants. There are and were factions on either side that wanted peace and factions that wanted war. Factions that wanted compromise and those that did not. We see this over and over throughout history. It's a lot easier to sow chaos than peace. Who fired the first shot is a pointless question. The fact is that Israel has been attacked many times from within and without. They have also attacked within and without.

And recall that even among Jews there are anti-Zionists who believe strongly that the Jews should not have a state. Some of the negative treatment of Zionism comes from them.

My point is that there is little of value in going over the history to cast blame and conclusive moral judgments. The question is how to achieve peace now. What Hamas and the other Jihadi groups did on 10/7 was designed to sow chaos and draw the surrounding states into a war against Israel. They may yet succeed.

There is a reason the surrounding states refuse to take in more Palestinians. If you read the history of Jordan - the state that took in the largest number after the '48 war - you will get some sense of what they would be importing. Along with a vast majority of Palestinians who just want to live their lives would come Jihadi warriors who create terror and instability.

To pretend there are easy or good solutions to this situation is to engage in wishful thinking. Only bad and worse and it's near impossible to know which is bad and which is worse. I feel that Israel should relent on bombing Gaza because they are killing a lot of civilians. Will that bring peace? It certainly won't stop Hamas and the other Jihadis. I'm not sure anything will.

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Azuraq's avatar

One factor that gets overlooked a lot in this discussion is the paucity of resources in the region. Peebo mentions the unwillingness of neighboring Arab states to take in millions of refugees. Unlike the US or EU, Egypt & Jordan simply do not have the capacity to take in such an influx of people. Jordan is one of the most water-scarce countries on earth that has, and is, in a sense the largest refugee camp too. Egypt fares a little better, but the Nile isnтАЩt guaranteed to flow forever. The conditions in the Negev are dire when compared to the western edge of Israel. I think here in the US we take for granted our enormous capacity to absorb large population transfers as a way of ameliorating conflict, but in the Middle East scarcity is a gasoline that lights a lot of fires.

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Yaacov Lyons's avatar

Unfortunately it really does feel unsolvable.

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

The thing that might save Israel is Russia. They have steadfastly refused to take sides and may be the only powerful nation with the credibility to negotiate some kind of peace.

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Re's avatar

тАЬpowerful nation with the credibility to negotiate some kind of peaceтАЭ that committing genocide and terrorizing neighboring country right now.

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

The war in Ukraine is no genocide, and was instigated directly by the Ukrainian government with the aid of the US. A low lever civil war has been ongoing since the US-backed coup in 2014 when the Kiev coup-regime began criminalizing ethnic Russians and murdering them. 14 thousand died during those 8 years prior to the Russian invasion, and that invasion can be strongly argued as preemptive given Ukraine was preparing to overrun the Donbas when Russia invaded. The Russian invasion of Ukraine had far more justification than the US wars in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

And for two-thirds of the world, Putin is seen as a far more honest and productive leader than anyone in "the west". Unlike the entire corrupt US government, when Putin speaks bullshit doesn't pour out of his mouth.

The narrative you obviously have in mind is provided to you directly from the deep state lie-machine.

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Rakshith's avatar

Wow this is just pure Russian propaganda. Your other comment was on point.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

No kidding! I was thinking he had something really worthwhile to add until he started in on supporting Putin. This is weird!

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

What I wrote were facts. If you choose to view these facts as "propaganda" that's because you believe the Russian invasion came out of the blue and is a war of conquest and you believe that because western media tells you this. The facts I reiterated are all basic public information, much of it already reported in western media and by the UN long before the beginning of Russia's SMO. Maybe it's time for you to question some of the propaganda you believe are facts before hurling around that word.

If you think the first thing I wrote made sense, perhaps it behooves you to consider the second might also.

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Johan Harto's avatar

Absolute lies

https://www.interpretermag.com/an-invasion-by-any-other-name-the-kremlins-dirty-war-in-ukraine/

Mrs Digna van Boetzelaer / Deputy Chief Public Prosecutor (Netherlands):

тАЬThe purpose of this investigation was to find out the truth, and I think we have come further than we ever imagined in 2014. The world now knows what happened to flight MH17. Three offenders have been identified and sentenced to life imprisonment. The bar for establishing individual criminal liability is high. At the moment we do not meet that bar for the persons discussed in the remaining investigation. The findings we have uncovered about the Russian involvement up to the highest level can play an important role in proceedings where the liability of this state is at issue.тАЭ

https://www.prosecutionservice.nl/topics/mh17-plane-crash/news/2023/02/08/jit-mh17-strong-indications-that-russian-president-decided-on-supplying-buk

This is just to give you two sources that clearly show that Russia was the one who went into both the eastern parts and the southern part of Ukraine, to deny this is to deny reality.

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Rob (c137)'s avatar

Ukraine held back the air traffic control radar data.. If they had proof it was Russia do you think they would have done that? Haha

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

Western Ukraine's far right neo-nazi groups (Azov, Svoboda, Right Sector, etc) staged a violent coup with the backing of the US government in 2014. Victoria Nuland's phone convo where she picked the coup government is available all over the net. She admitted it was her on the call. After the coup, the neo-nazi regime outlawed the Russian language and started a violent clampdown on the eastern ethnically Russian areas of Ukraine. As but one vivid example, they forced dozens of ethnic Russians into the Trade Union building in Odessa and set it on fire, burning them to death. It's all on video.

A civil war broke out at that point instigated by the US and the far-right in Western Ukraine who see Nazi collaborator and and mass murderer of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews during WWII --Stepan Bandera -- as their patron saint. Of course Russia helped defend the ethnic Russians in the east from this onslaught. Imagine if Mexico invaded southern California with Russian backing --- would the US do nothing? Don't make me laugh.

As for the MH117 incident, there is no hard evidence pointing to Russia as the perpetrator. None whatsoever. The sites you link to are total bullshit. The real investigation into the incident was never resolved and quietly hushed up. I supposed you also think the Russians blew up their own pipeline.

As I wrote before, you are trusting specific western (and Ukrainian) news media that has lied about nearly everything w/ regard to Ukraine since 2014-- but despite that the facts I stated above were widely reported in the western news media at the time. You know nothing of the history of how the CIA, since the end of WWII, backed Ukrainian separatists like the OUN and other Banderite groups to destabilize Ukraine and the USSR. They continued these operations after the Cold War ended, spending over $5 billion to destabilize Ukraine in the 20 year period before the 2014 coup. What a success its been.

They've also lied about the progress of the war since it began: first the sanctions would crush Russia -- they didn't. Then the story pivoted to the Russians being incompetent and it was only a matter of time until Ukraine was victorious. Now, with between 3-500,000 dead Ukrainians and Russia on the brink of victory, with kill ratios of roughly 7-10:1 in a mass slaughter that should never have happened if the US hadn't insisted on Ukraine not simply remaining neutral, it's all falling apart. This war was completely unnecessary yet the US pushed it believing in a pipe dream that Russia would collapse and the west could finally complete the looting operation they began in the 1990s. Oh well. Russia has not been weakened by this war -- they are stronger and more influential geopolitically than they have ever been. History will see the Ukraine war as the point when the US empire's unipolar moment ended through overreach, arrogance and greed. Great fucking job US oligarchy and government/military stooges. What a fucking mess.

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Johan Harto's avatar

There are claims of a US backed coup in Ukraine, but there is no evidence of it.

The 14 000 people that died in eastern and southern Ukraine was due to the Russian invasion that were trying to masquerade as Ukrainians and Russias being opressed by the Kyiv government, but it has been established by courts, independent reasearchers, European governments and a lot of Russians in high positions have said this too.

You have completely swallowed the Russian disinformation believing that they are the ones who are speaking the truth and that Putin is the honest guy.

At first I thought this was satire, because your claims are so unbelievably unhinged and false, but then I remember there are people who actually believe these things.

Everything you said is the complete opposite of the truth, typical of Russian propaganda.

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

The civil war was fought to a standstill not by the Russian military, who didn't enter Ukraine until February 2022. They may have supplied some weaponry to the ethnic Russian east but that's about it. What happened was the ethnic Russian elements within the Ukrainian military broke away, took large weapons caches and began a defense of the Donbas against western Ukrainian incursion after the coup. It was a civil war and the UN itself reported it as such and documented the numbers killed on both sides. I really don't know why you feel the need to reiterate NATO propaganda since its all over the mainstream media everyday. Boring.

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Nov 23, 2023
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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

Did you know that most of the Russian oligarchs are Jewish? There is anti-Semitism in Russia of course. It's a huge country. There is also anti-Semitism in the US. I read them everyday on twitter.

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JasonT's avatar

It is unsurprising that there are competing narratives re the history of Israel, or any other nation. Now that Israel is an entity what future does an antizionist promote? What reaponse, if any should be made to Hamas? I agree that history is useful in understanding the present but it doesn't help tremendously in plotting the future. Thanks.

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Ruth Schapira's avatar

Have you also read Myths and Facts: a guide to the Arab-Israeli conflict by Mitchell Bard? It is indispensable for understanding the historical facts, up to the present time which sheds light on the current situation.

https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Facts-Guide-Arab-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0971294569

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Jess1won's avatar

Hiiii I really really appreciate your response!!! May I repost your reading list on Tiktok with full credit to you? I think more people need to see this.ЁЯе╣

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Princess Ebi's avatar

Thank you for this reading list. YouтАЩre doing a public service by sharing this

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Ruth Schapira's avatar

Since you seem to be very widely read, have you read Myths and Facts: a guide to the Arab-Israeli conflict by Mitchell Bard? It is indispensable for understanding the historical facts, up to the present time which sheds light on the current situation.

https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Facts-Guide-Arab-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0971294569

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Joaquim's avatar

Will you write an update / retraction if you are able to deem yourself mistaken? Otherwise the whole тАЬIтАЩm an objective observer who sticks to the facts unlike the woke and radical leftтАЭ stick becomes ordinary, conservative grifting of which there are already so many.

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Gurwinder's avatar

I think it's unlikely I'm mistaken, but if I do turn out to be, I absolutely will issue a correction.

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Joaquim's avatar

Unlikely huh? I see that humility is your strong suit. But IтАЩm sure you know more than Israeli scholars, Palestinian researchers and historians on both sides, because youтАЩre good with Google. IтАЩm even more confident because of the *checks notes* 0 references or sources in your essay. Really just fills me with confidence that youтАЩll honestly admit your mistakes.

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Gurwinder's avatar

Point out what I got wrong.

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Dillon Vado's avatar

Gurwinder, IтАЩm curious now what your position is on Israel and their тАЬself defenseтАЭ? After 7 months of continuous slaughter, full on siege of water and food supply, 30,000+ dead, and leveling of the complete infrastructure including hospitals and UN centersтАж gotta say it looks pretty bad on them in this moment.

Also curious your opinion on Palestinians AND Israelis held captive by aggressive and inherently undemocratic leadership that doesnтАЩt represent what the common sense majority seem to want, which is none of this craziness.

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Joaquim's avatar

I am not the one making extraordinary claims, am I? I also do not pretend to be an expert on topics I am not. I am familiar enough with the conflict to know that your claims require some significant sourcing and referencing. The OP commenter demonstrated his credentials and indicated you are wrong in your claims. If you are as objective as you claim, that should be enough to at least demonstrate how you are substantiating these claims you are making. Is that too much to ask?

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Gurwinder's avatar

What claims would you like sources for?

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Joaquim's avatar

Your essay is what 2000 words? It has 0 sources. How about at least one source for every тАЬmythтАЭ? ItтАЩs frankly ridiculous I even have to spell this out. If you make a factual claim (or dispel a fact as inaccurate), provide a source or reference. Especially for strong claims. There, now you are ready to graduate secondary school.

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Gurwinder's avatar

If you'd like sources for any of the historical, geographical, or political facts in my essay, point them out. But if you're just going to vaguely complain and accuse me of being a high-schooler, it would be better for both of us if you stopped reading my work.

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Joaquim's avatar

If asking for basic sourcing in factual writing is тАЬvaguely complainingтАЭ then I know enough. Ordinary conservative grifter it is. I try to read pieces of people I disagree with, and I thought yours were the rare ones that actually had some thought behind them instead of blindly regurgitating conservative talking points. But I see I was mistaken. Not surprising, but disappointing.

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A Note On The Type's avatar

Joaquim, simply pick one or two points youтАЩd like a source for. Gurwinder has said heтАЩs happy to provide.

If youтАЩre right, and I suspect youтАЩre not and you know it, he wonтАЩt be able to oblige.

ItтАЩs very, very easy from your position. DonтАЩt just name call and whinge.

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Moodieonroody's avatar

What specifically are you disputing?

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ReadingRainbow's avatar

YouтАЩre triggered by someone presenting a reasonable argument that disagrees with your dogma so youтАЩre whining, calling names, and screeching SOURCE, without refuting anything in particular.

Maybe youтАЩre the bad guy here?

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Abominable Sonoman's avatar

You must feel like you just got dry shaved or something. You donтАЩt to hear this well I got news pal it is pretty damn accurate. Do me a favor and provide me with a smidgeon of proof that there was or ever has been a historical Palestinian state or Palestinian people. There were a handful of tribes but that is and has forever been the ancestral home to the Jewish people. You can be butt hurt all you want but the Hamas Nazi get zero sympathies here.

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Lucy's avatar

Wow. Attack mode here.

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Tarun's avatar

You left out that Jewish settlers were fighting the British before WW2 and were allied with the Nazis... were the Arabs also allied with them? I hadn't heard that, but you're deff giving the Israeli sides version.

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Peebo Preboskenes's avatar

To say the pre-WWII Zionists were "allied with the Nazis" is a gross mischaracterization. There was discussion between Hitler's regime and the Zionists to relocate Jews from Germany to Palestine. Hitler wanted them out and the Zionists wanted them in. This didn't get far beyond the talking stage as you can imagine Jews living in Europe for millennia didn't exactly want to emigrate to the desert. The rest, as they say, is history.

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Tarun's avatar

You're right but the fact that the Zionists were fighting the Brits at the same time makes it look more like an alliance of sorts... I know many in India who were fighting the Brits allied with the Nazis as well...

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Joseph Blalock's avatar

Joaquim, I see that humility is not something you understand well.

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Lama Alsaad's avatar

Thank you. Since when defending human rights and denouncing genocide became equated with being a тАЬleftistтАЭ oh and a тАЬmuslimтАЭ? To stand against war crime and genocide is to be a human. Period.

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doLst's avatar

So glad to see that you are against the atrocities committed by Hamas!

Surf Wisely.

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Makusin's avatar

I'm against both sides - violence in this case is both sides just making the problem worse

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Hans Nelson's avatar

I would definitely recommend listening to Darryl Cooper's MartyrMade series on the Israel/Palestine conflict called "Fear & Loathing in the New Jerusalem."

Your account in section 1 follows fairly well with his up until the late 1930s, at which point the narratives diverge significantly. Especially in 1947.

If you want to skip to that point in the series, go straight to episode 5.

He strikes me as very even-keeled and fair to both parties in his historical account, but you should judge for yourself.

https://martyrmade.com/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem/

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

I listened to it, and I thought the same thing. Unfortunately, as I followed him more closely I discovered that heтАЩs pretty extreme in his thinking. He does a YouTube video with some other guy, and they are both very far right. I also remember seeing Dan Carlin (Hardcore History) give Darryl a dressing down on Twitter.

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Hans Nelson's avatar

Kudos for actually listening to it, but not-kudos on your textbook, lazy use of the perfect rhetorical fortress to get out of actually having to engage on the substance of someone's position.

It's fine if you have actual disagreements on points of fact or interpretation, but just labeling him as far-right so you don't have put in any effort into understanding or critiquing his point of view is childish and anti-intellectual.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

Get over yourself. I really liked the article, but this comments section is one of the worst IтАЩve come across in a while. Do you really feel the need to use put downs in order to make yourself seem better? ItтАЩs not working.

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Hans Nelson's avatar

If you'll read my response again, you'll see that I critiqued specific actions and behaviors, not your personal character.

If you'd like to choose to be offended by that rather than ask yourself if there is any merit to the constructive criticism (maybe there is, but maybe there isn't), that's your prerogative.

The funniest thing about your assertion that he is "extreme" and "very far right" is that after listening to all 25 hours of his deep dive on the history of the conflict, I came away with much more sympathy for the Palestinian cause. That's kind of the opposite effect of the "far right wing" position.

He is self-admittedly a troll on Twitter though, so if that's the extent of your exposure to him, then that makes a little more sense.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

I listened to him again with some guy named Joko, and I thought he was much better. LetтАЩs just move on.

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Amanita's avatar

He sounds like he is copying Dan Carlin's voice and cadance in the podcast. It is uncanny. Now I need to go look for that exchange on Twitter / X. I'm a big Dan Carlin fan.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

I think I was a bit too harsh. Darryl is very knowledgeable, but he can be awfully тАЬdark.тАЭ However, I thought his MartyrMade podcast was excellent. I just recommended it to a friend. I remember him being on Daniele Bolelli's podcast (History on Fire) where they talked about the incident with Dan Carlin, and it sounded like a misunderstanding.

Yes, Dan Carlin is a favorite, but with everything happening now, IтАЩm having a hard time listening to anything that has so much doom and gloom in it. He can get a little too graphic. IтАЩm interested in history, but I donтАЩt need a detailed description of torture.

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Phong Le's avatar

Listen to John Mearsheimer

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Ruth Schapira's avatar

Respectfully, you must read Myths and Facts: a guide to the Arab-Israeli conflict by Mitchell Bard. It is indispensable for understanding the historical facts, up to the present time which shed light on the current situation.

https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Facts-Guide-Arab-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0971294569

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Oct 26, 2023
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Gurwinder's avatar

I try to read all comments, but when they're coming at me fast, I sometimes miss them. I missed your top comment and have now given it a like.

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Graham Cunningham's avatar

Thank you.... and sorry to be a grouch.

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